is in effect. chuck hagel's confirmation is on thursday, until this group says who they are, the important opposition to the chuck hagel's nomination is going to be that some of that opposition appears to be fake, comically, ridiculously to be fake, do you want that to be the headline on thursday? if not, come out, come out, whoever you are. now it is fine for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell, have a nice evening. so republicans do a giant flip-flop on immigration today, because you know, they're running for office for pete's sake. >> we went to the company and said look, you can't have any illegals working on our property, i'm running for office, for pete's sake, i can't have an immigrant. comprehensive immigration reform by the end of this year. >> this will be the year congress finally gets it done. today, a ray of hope,

possibly. >> four democrats and republicans will lay out a framework. >> this bipartisan blueprint is a major breakthrough. >> a major breakthrough on immigration reform. >> it shows momentum. >> momentum is on the side of comprehensive reform. >> we welcome movement and progress. >> republicans have to deal with the facts of life here. >> when we see an opening, however small, we should take it. >> they're doing it for election returns. >> look at the last election. >> president obama did win seven in ten hispanic voters. >> you need hispanics in this state to win. >> look, immigration is a good thing. >> we are losing dramatically the hispanic vote. >> we'll only succeed if the effort is bipartisan. >> it is a system that is broken that needs fixing. >> paul ryan is coming out as a new leader. >> when we see an opening, however small, we should take it. >> the president will bait us.

he will portray us as cruel and unyielding. >> you can't fight things you know you will lose on. >> we're trying to do immigration since 2004. >> this could have been done in 2007. >> what were they thinking. >> we are losing dramatically the hispanic vote. >> when we see an opening, however small, we should take it. >> exactly one year ago, this week this is what republicans thought voters wanted to hear about immigration. >> so if you don't deport them, how do you send them home? >> well, the answer is self deportation, where people side they can work there because they don't have documents. >> i am running for office, for pete's sake. >> and just two years ago, just after winning his senate re-election, this was john

mccain's position on immigration. >> complete the dang fence. >> it will work this time? senator, you're one of us. >> i'm john mccain and i approve this message. >> and then, on november 6th, 2012, they lost 71% of the hispanic vote to president obama, and literally after that, they started to talk about compromise on immigration. >> we have to get rid of the immigration issue altogether, it is simple for me to fix it. i think you control the border first, create a pathway for the people here, you don't say you have to go home. and that is a position that i have evolved on. because you know what? it has got to be resolved. >> and so today, immigration became the first order of business in the new congress for some republicans. >> first step in what will continue to be difficult, but

achievable. and i don't think i have to remind anyone the last major attempt was over six years ago. now we will again attempt to commit the remaining resources needed to secure the border. modernize and streamline our current immigration system, and create a tough but fair path to citizenship for those here illegally. >> senator john mccain and three other republican senators, marco rubio, lindsey graham and jeff flake are now joining four democrats on a bipartisan plan to overhaul immigration laws that will estimate the current illegals in the united states to have a path to citizenship. >> this bipartisan blueprint is a major breakthrough. a tough but fair path to citizenship for illegal immigrants currently living in the united states. that is contingent upon secure ing our borderings. on day one of our bill the

people here without status that are not criminals or security risks will be able to live here legally. >> this will be a tough pathway but it will be fair. it will be one in which those who have come to this country to achieve the american dream will come forth, must register with the government or they will lose their opportunities. >> the senators insist they can do this without threatening american jobs. >> for making sure that the amount of illegal immigrants that are -- amount of legal immigration that is allowed in the united states is based on the state of our economy. we are going to enshrine my here the principle that when there are job openings, americans get the first grab at it. >> senator schumer says he has spoken with president obama and that the president supports the bipartisan plan. president obama is flying to nevada to push the issue there. there was a flash of the old straight talking john mccain today when he was asked why

republicans are suddenly ready to compromise so much on immigration. >> one, as i have stated before elections, elections, the republican party is losing the support of our hispanic citizens. and we realize that there are many issues in which we think we are in agreement with our hispanic citizens. but this is a preeminent issue with those citizens. >> today's developments left one right-wing republican observer completely dumbfounded. >> if the democrats think their position on immigration, let's use that for example, is the right one, and if the democrats' position is what is getting all that support from hispanic voters, what i don't understand is why would the democrats want to give up some of those voters to the republicans? can somebody help me out here. >> i don't know, rush, sounds

like you're beyond help, but i'll give it a try. what you are seeing is not a compromise on immigration. you are seeing republicans surrender on immigration. and you are seeing democrats accept that surrender, because, and this will be the hardest part for rush limbaugh to understand. the democrats actually mean what they say about this issue. they actually do want to reform the system. and yes, during the last campaign democrats were politically lucky that republicans were doing everything they could, every day, to drive latino voters to democrats. but the now victorious democrats actually want to govern on this issue. they actually want to make the system better. not just exploit the issue to win campaigns. and that is something that rush limbaugh is never going to

understand. >> what i don't understand is why would the democrats want to give up some of those voters to the republicans? can somebody help me out here? >> joining me now to help me out here, msnbc's krystal ball and steve kornacki, and msnbc latino contributor. krystal, can you help rush limbaugh here? what happens -- and what do you think the republican calculation is about what happens to latino voters and hispanic voters going forward in elections, assuming something like that package actually does get legislated. >> well, i think the sense is for republicans is that they have to do something with this issue. this they have to get it off the table if they have any hope in winning the 71% loss as you

pointed out they won with the latino voters. they can push it to the right, they can try to make that pathway to legal status to citizenship as long and drawn out as possible. or they cannot negotiate, which has been the position in the past. get killed politically, or if something does pass without their help it will be purely on democratic term terms. and the pathway to citizenship will be much shorter and much more to the left than the process. and the republicans have to realize at this point that they have lost opportunities along the way in the health care reform debate. in their move to strike a bargain. if they had come to the negotiating table to work with democrats they could have pushed things more to the right and more with their liking. >> steve kornacki, what strikes me about this story is not so much the particulars of immigration, but the politics of

21st century republicans, what we're seeing in john mccain, fratangefor example, is a very strange wandering, like george bush, living in the border state, arizona, texas, having experienced, being much more liberal on immigration. then when he is running for a senate seat, he becomes a thoughtless republican, talking about building a dang fence. isn't john mccain's travels a road map of how things have gone very strange in the republican party? >> it is an eight-year journey, the high point was when george bush got 44% of the hispanic vote, 53% for kerry, and karl rove said they were then going to move on comprehensive immigration reform and they were going to cement hispanics, or a

large chunk of that hispanics, as sort of what rove called the republican majority. it was not just john mccain, it was the republican primary in 2008. you remember john mccain came into that, the guy who would finish second to bush in 2000. this was going to be john mccain's nomination in 2008. and his campaign practically implodedded. he linked the immigration reform bill to ted kennedy. it became totally off limits in republican primaries. and yes, you are now seeing a return to normalsy, a guy like john mccain, and graham, they still come out supporting it. i think it is an open question, when you look at the republican safe house districts is it still safe for these people to come out and say they support comprehensive reform? i still think it is an open question. >> victoria, take us through the

elements of the plan, the democrats like to say tough but fair, they are suspected of being too soft on this. but it does include a path to citizenship and that phrase, "path to citizenship." that concept became absolutely forbidden in republican politics recently. >> you know, what we had been seeing up until this morning was the senate bill was only going to include legal status. so they went the whole nine yards and said we are going to include citizenship. but the toughness side of that fairness is beefed up border security. another interesting part here is getting tough on these states, we know that close to 40% of undocumented or illegal, pick your term, folks in this country are as a result of visa over-stays. what we also see is tougher enforcement of the employers. why do illegal immigrants come here? because there are jobs and

people willing to hire them. so the key here is to go after these employers and not just say hey, you can't hire undocumented folks. but having an e-verify system and also hefty fines. the argument that some of the republicans are going to put forward is well, we're not going to allow citizenship until we enforce the borders. but here, president obama can really put forward a check list and say record number of deportations? check, record number of dollars spent on the border. check, net migrating to mexico, zero, check. so i think the president is in a very good position of showing the toughness that balances out the fairness. >> there were some very striking political moments today in the senator's appearance. i want to go to a spot where chuck schumer talked about john mccain, almost a flashback of him working with ted kennedy on this subject. let's hear what chuck schumer

said about john mccain. >> i want to say he has been in the glue in our group, his wisdom, courage, steadfastness, and many other adjectives that i'll skip at the moment, have really been inspiring to us. and i really want to just say -- want me to go on? >> krystal, it is john mccain 3.0 or 4.0-i don't know, this is an amazing flashback when john mccain used to cooperate with democrats. >> very chummy there, and a quick turn about, recently he has been taking out his political grudges on susan rice and being very aggressive there. now he is back to the maverick john mccain, when he used to be the guy you could count on to looking at a bipartisan manner

when acting in government. >> and here is the other striking political moment. john mccain explains what he thinks will be necessary to pass this bill, including what he calls the leadership of president obama. let's listen to this. >> i am confident the majority of both houses, led by the president of the united states, who made this a major campaign issue, that we will succeed. but we're not going to get everybody on board. >> steve kornacki, nothing provprove s more strongly than that, that elections do have consequences. >> i can't help but think with john mccain, you're looking at a protection of legacy there. his reputation as a maverick was a bit over sold, what it really reflects, the guy is a sore loser, we saw it in the wake of the 2002 election. he was a very conservative member of the senate who happened to lose to george w. bush and took out all the

grudges of george w. bush, then he was a mavericky liberal. went back to the right, now you have a guy here his term is going to be up in 2016. he will be 80 years old. this is an issue he really cares about and i think he really looks at it, i'm going to leave the senate in 2016, what is my legacy beyond being a sore loser and holding grudges, well, here is something worth fighting for. >> krystal ball, steve kornacki -- the teleprompter didn't get that right. >> no worries. >> thank you all for helping me to t tonight. coming up, president obama and hillary clinton do 60 minutes together, what is that all about. >> and we're two days from knowing who governor duval

patrick will appoint as the next senator of massachusetts. it is really very simple. he will appoint barney frank or make a big mistake. and it is all over for sarah palin, nobody is sorry to see her go. sarah palin, the presidential candidate who never was is in tonight's rewrite for possibly the final time.

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hillary clinton did not do a sixty minutes interview with president obama last night in order to silence her talk of running for president, she of course, knew one of the questions would be are you running for president. hillary and obama's excellent adventure is coming up. and what they look for in a leader coming up next. [ male announcer ] after years of celebrations,

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helps defend against these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. on saturday, america's most recent losing vice presidential candidate who will never be president, spoke at the national review summit where he offered this advice on the future of the republican party. >> we have to be smart. we have to show prudence, what do you mean when i say that? prudence is good judgment in the art of governing. we have to find the good in every situation and choose the best means to achieve it. we have to make decisions anchored in reality and take responsibility for the consequences. you know, the prudent man is

like the captain at sea. he doesn't curse the wind, he uses it to reach his destination. >> the next day, the man who ran on the self-deportation ticket for president found a way to come out in support of comprehensive immigration reform. >> i think there is a balance between respecting the rule of law and adhering to the reality of the day. and i think marco rubio touched on it, about earned legalization, making sure you don't reward people for cutting in line. >> do you see that happening this year? >> there are a lot of democrats in congress, who once and for all want to solve this mess, the broken immigration system, many agree with it. hopefully we can actually get it now. >> joining me now, steve schmidt, former adviser, and krystal ball, steve, i tried to have the staff together today. a reel of you saying over and

over throughout the year that the republicans have to stop alienating the latino vote the way they were. they have to stop fighting the demographics the way they have been. it was inevitable that they had to make a move in this direction, wasn't it? >> look, absolutely, and in 2016, the electorate will be 2% less white than it was in 2012, which is 2% less than it was in 2008. and it will continue, this is a matter of survival for the republican party, we can't be a national party and have no hope of winning presidential elections unless we can compete for the hispanic vote in the country. >> and krystal, we showed this earlier, hannity, day after the election, he was leading a chorus, all by the way, echoing

steve schmidt who had been saying, it took them an election night loss to figure out how right steve was. >> well, that was exactly right, and the problem was that mitt romney felt he had to move so far to the right, self-deportation, saying he would reenact the dream act. and i don't know that rick perry was really that much of a threat to him. he felt he had to move so far to the right that he really couldn't come back to any sensible or reasonable position for the general election. they were left hoping they could hold together this coalition of white people and be able to win one last time with that. obviously, as steve pointed out that is no longer going to be possible. >> steve, it was striking during the republican primary to see newt gingrich, for example, who made a plea for humane treatment in here. and for consideration about families and family unity, kinds of issues that you would -- he framed it in a way that you

could imagine appealing to conservatives. and he pretty much got booed by the republican primary debate audience when he tried that. but it seems that the mccains of the world were watching that and realized that if this election goes the other way they're obviously going to have to find their way back to where you know, john mccain used to be. >> there is no doubt between 2007 and 2012, just recently as november this was an issue that as a republican if you went out and talked about you have to solve this problem, that we have to deal in a compassionate way with the people that are already in the room. after a loss, this is a math issue, it is pretty simple to look at it. i think the people of the party have an interest of winning elections because if we don't win elections we have no way to advance the conservative agenda.

they fell from over 27% to over 40% where they were at with george w. bush as recently as 2004. >> steve, is this issue won in a republican migration towards the center? is there an issue two and three that they have to move on? >> well, i think if you're a republican you look at the last couple of years and just had this almost primal scream after the 2008 debate, where so many of the rhetoric and party flirted on the loony fringe. whether it is the bobby jindal speech or paul ryan speech where they say you have to be grounded in reality. you're now starting to see where the republican leaders in government are looking at issues opposite of the taming complex. they're saying look we can't let the talk radio guys drive us off the right ledge here and render us uncompetitive and unable to

win elections. you will see it play out over the next four years and will see there are people working to get issues done like immigration who will probably not survive primary challenges. and maybe that republican who wins that primary challenge, of course, is defeated as we've given up five u.s. senate seats in the last two election cycles. so i don't think that that story is entirely played out yet. but you're starting to see the leaders of the party you know, starting to push back a little bit on the craziness that we've dealt with over the last four years. >> steve schmidt and krystal ball, thank you both for joining me tonight. and steve before you go, the congratulations are in order, a new member of the family there. >> thank you. >> congratulations, steve. >> isabel violet, what is it? two girls, one boy. >> two girls, one boy. our little one, nine days old now. >> that is awesome, congratulations, steve.

>> thank you. >> thank you both. coming up, hillary clinton's exit interview with president obama on "60 minutes." that is going to be left. and you have seen the last of sarah palin as a paid political pundit on "fox news." dumping sarah palin, gets them both in tonight's rewrite. a mu. i took something for my sinuses, but i still have this cough. [ male announcer ] truth is, a lot of sinus products don't treat cough. they don't? [ male announcer ] nope, but alka seltzer plus severe sinus does it treats your worst sinus symptoms, plus that annoying cough. [ angry gibberish ] [ fake coughs ] sorry that was my fault sir. [ male announcer ] alka seltzer plus severe sinus. [ breathes deeply ] ♪ oh, what a relief it is! [ male announcer ] try alka seltzer plus severe sinus day and night for complete relief from your worst sinus symptoms.

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normalcy, normal . last night, president obama said good-bye and thank you to hillary clinton, and he chose to

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you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i could get used to this. [ male announcer ] yes, you could business pro. yes, you could. go national. go like a pro. you talked about ronald reagan being a transformative political leader -- >> i can't tell who i'm running against sometimes. >> i was fighting against those ideas when were practicing law and representing your contributor in his slum landlord business in inner city chicago. >> he is very likeable. i agree with that -- i don't think i'm that bad. >> you're likeable enough, hillary, no doubt about it. >> well, that was then, in the spotlight tonight, this is now.

>> i was a big admirer of hillary's before our primary battles in the general election. her discipline, her stamina, her thoughtfulness. i think everybody understands that hillary has been one of the most important advisers that i've had. i consider hillary a strong friend. >> i mean, very warm, close -- i think there is a sense of understanding that you know, sometimes doesn't even take words. >> joining me now, msnbc's karen finney who served as deputy press secretary to clinton, and press secretary, co-authoring a book about the 2016 prospects. karen finney, what do you know

to be the truth here about hillary clinton's feelings about president obama? and explain to us how people can get over the first clip, in what we showed about them running against each other. >> people don't realize it, but the club of people who have been either president or first lady is very, very small. so in many ways, hillary clinton is one of the few people, her husband being another one close to this parent who really understands in a very visceral personality level what it is to be president. what it is to try to raise children in the white house. what it is to try to make decisions on a daily basis. so i believe that their friendship is very sincere, because it is part of the reason that you see presidents, former presidents become friends after they have left the white house. because again, there are only a few people who really understand what that is really like. and what the challenges are really like. so i think it is a sincere

friendship. and i think a lot of these things, to be perfectly honest it is the staff that is nastier to each other and holds the grudges a lot longer. >> yeah, that is what they said last night. let's listen to what hillary said about running for president. >> obviously, the president and i care deeply about what will happen for our country in the future. and i don't think either he or i can make predictions about what is going to happen tomorrow or the next year. >> i think she could have made a prediction about what is going to happen in their career. there is the ready for hillary pack, has already been launched. the mission is to support hillary clinton when she decides to run for president. i don't say if, i say when. john jonathan, i think it is when, not if. >> obviously, that decision doesn't have to be made for a

while and there is a lot of things that happen between now and them. but i think if you talk to people around her increasingly, they think 2016 is the likelihood, a lot of them are banking their futures on it. >> well, karen, people i have been hearing from include fundraising contributors they have had, hillary clinton had in the past, especially in her senate campaign, presidential campaign. and they're indicating they get all the signals they need to start gearing up. >> yeah, well, you know people can also read signals how they want to read them. i think there is no question there are many, many people. we saw it last week, frankly, when she was testifying on the hill who definitely want hillary clinton to run and want her to be the democratic nominee. and i think there are have folks who may be getting ahead of themselves, i actually believe her when she says let me just finish this job and rest and kind of figure out what comes next. but i mean, you know, think

about it. since her husband became president in 1992 it has been nonstop for her in terms of her life in the public eye. so we'll see. but hey, it never hurts to have a little money in the bank when you're trying to make a decision. >> jonathan. one of the things that may force her hand sooner than she may like is that andrew cuomo wants to run for the presidency, obviously, and he uses the same donor base. and he has to go to appeal to those people. and he has to start his fundraising for that from zero, the money he raised from gubernatorial campaigns can't be used. so andrew and hillary, especially concentrated in new york, need to know from hillary, what should i do? >> he may find it harder to raise money before she made a decision not to run if that is her decision, because people will stay on the sidelines. they will look, karen talked about the signals before, for

red lights, green, perhaps yellow lights. to say yeah, do what you want but not really. obviously her fundraising basis a national fundraising base. he starts in new york and then builds out from that. certainly, he will look at what she is doing. i think that is also true of martin o'malley, the governor of maryland. joe biden, there is talk about him, as well. he brought in folks for the inauguration, obviously, the first of the nation primary state. so there is a lot going on in terms of the talk about 2016 for democrats. but i don't think any of these folks really have to make a decision, certainly not for the next year or two years. >> karen finney, and john allen, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> and andrea mitchell will interview secretary clinton this wednesday, on andrea mitchell reports, you can see it on "msnbc," at 1:00 on wednesday.

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i got a subaru. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru a subaru. the governor of massachusetts has a big decision to make this week, the question of who he will appoint to fulfill john kerry's seat when john kerry is confirmed as secretary of state. the governor has said he will announce that decision wednesday. and guess what the governor is scheduled to do after he announces that decision? come on this program and talk to me about it. this program, which has become the de facto campaign headquarters for the "appoint barney frank for senator campaign." let's see what the governor announces on wednesday. we'll talk more about that on the show tonight. and the rewrite is next. nobody said an all-in-one had to be bulky.

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to think about running for president. >> i think she has always had frontrunner status, the person who was the vice presidential nominee last time almost always has frontrunner status, if they do a good job, which she did. >> and to think he actually became famous by being bill clinton's trusted adviser before becoming a fox news artist. of course, sarah palin did not do a good job of running for vice president. and as i have pointed out relentlessly during the always sarah palin media bubble, there is in fact nothing worse for your political future than losing in the vice presidential slot, no matter how well you perform as a losing candidate. if losing in the vice presidential slot conferred frontrunner status for the party's next presidential nomination, then dan quayle

would have been the frontrunner, which of course he was not. and then, according to the dick morris theory, the runner should have been jack kemp. and then the frontrunner in 2004 would have been this guy, who of course ran in the primaries and lost. badly. then of course, the frontrunner for the democratic nomination in 2008 would of course, have been, john edwards. losing vice presidential candidates don't just lose that election. they lose their political futures. that is why i always called sarah palin the most recent losing vice presidential candidate who will never be president. while most everyone else was taking seriously the possibility that she would run for president. and some were even taking seriously the possibility that she could actually win the presidency. >> my guess is yes, i believe she is going to run for

president. she sounds to me like somebody who is running for president. >> governor, lot of people -- last time i spoke to you, i was asking you know, where are you in this process of making your decision? you said you wanted to assess the field. the field has changed quite a bit, where are you today? >> still assessing the field because i know it is still going to change. the lineup, people are going to come and go before the legal deadline is imposed on us. i'm not ready to make a decision. >> well, i'm not a gambler, but the schedule she has next week in iowa looks like that of a candidate. >> as happened with donald trump's fake idea of running for president, the media's willingness to believe it ran so high, and i insisted that sarah palin would never run became so adamant that cooler heads wondered what i would do if i turned out to be wrong.

a possibility that never actually occurred to me. >> okay, let me just say it again, she is not going to run, and she is a joke. >> what will you do if she runs -- will you -- >> i'll resign my position immediately as the o-- >> you know what, if she runs, you should have to eat a large pepperoni pie. >> mark halpern's book, who remains the most high profile book of sarah palin, remains the book of the day when the two got together in new york for what was surely the emptiest conversation ever held over times square pizza. remember when every media post hinged on sarah palin, remember when a lot of you actually feared she would not just run for president, she may just actually win? it seems now like a far-off

world, the world in which the political media took sarah palin seriously. and now she has lost even the slightest connection to political relevance since "fox news" dumped her from their paid list. it is all over for sarah palin now, we wouldn't miss her as a political pundit. but let's remember this about sarah palin. unlike a lot of other pundits who are still on a lot of the payrolls in the political news business, sarah palin never once fell for the idea that sarah palin could actually run for president. >> the most recent losing vice presidential candidate who will never be president, she is not running for anything. she knows she will never be president. there is no chance of it, absolutely no chance.

>> pretending she was a presidential candidate, which of course viewers of this program have known for quite a while that sarah palin is not running for president. >> sarah palin fraud, as i see it. >> sarah palin is not running for president. as i have said before, sarah palin is not running for president. >> palin bulletin, she is still not running for president. i have been saying no chance of running for president. >> and she still is not running for president. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. no go call. this is for real this time. we are on step seven point two one two.

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what does that mean? >> anybody but -- >> no, don't be like that.

>> this is a chance for you to make history, are you going to make history? >> well, i'm going to make an appointment of somebody who i think will be competent, and will be a good steward. >> deval patrick is expected to announce wednesday who will fill john kerry's senate seat. the appointment would fill the seat until a special election is held june 25th. the governor is lucky enough to have an experienced former house of representatives chairman who has volunteered to be the interim senator. barney frank has offered his services to the senate. and here is deval patrick's

reaction. >> has he totally annoyed you? >> he is a compelling candidate for that appointment. he is a fabulous congressman, and would make a great senator. unfortunately, we have a few others on the list who are also compelling. >> are you close to making a decision? have you narrowed it down to one or two people? >> i'm close, yes. >> have you approached the person you're thinking about? >> we've talked, i should say my team has talked with all or most of the candidates. >> here is what barney frank had to say about all of this tonight. >> i want to respect the governor's choice on this, i had not previously been interested in it. i was ready to make a little money doing some things, making speeches and writing a book. and then i saw the important decisions coming up, so i expressed my interest doing it. >> ari, i have breaking news for

you. i want you to include this as a factor in your analysis. governor patrick is going to announce his choice on wednesday. and after doing that, he has committed to coming on this program with me to discuss that choice. could he possibly be coming here to tell me why he chose someone other than barney frank, which will make absolutely no sense to me if he does that? >> well, you showed the interviewer asking if he would make history. i guess it would make some sort of history, following your engineering, if he comes to barney frank headquarters on what would be a disappointing day here at "the last word." >> well, that was -- he indicated he suspects, the local boston reporter suspects it is a

woman candidate. and i guess the history would be the first woman senator from massachusetts. but the women mentioned -- one is a former chief justice, massachusetts -- with absolutely no legislative experience. it would be a very peculiar sacrifice of experience if you chose anyone other than barney frank, because there is no one in the mix who has actual experience in legislating in washington. >> yeah, i mean, i think judge marshal's name has been floated. and there are judges who have gone on to be big effective senators, george mitchell, of course, being a classic example. but it is not common. barney frank, and you, have outlined a very substantive case. and for most who have watched politics from a distance, it makes sense if you have a job are limited time you want somebody with experience, the way you want somebody who played in the minors, before you have